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Thread: Anybody flown their PA20 with the door(s) off?

  1. #1
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    Question Anybody flown their PA20 with the door(s) off?

    Read in the parachuter's AC that the PA20 is approved for flight with the/a door removed and to refer to the pilot's operating handbook/manual for instructions. Any of you done that? I might occasionally have need to use my Pacer for a photo mission. Just wonderin'...
    Slipping the surly bonds of Earth...

  2. #2
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    Haven't done it, but do know that there is a document that is submitted to the FAA for approval. I have the doc, and will see if I can post it.
    Searching......Found it!

    You would need to duplicate this using your A/c details, and get it approved by your friendly(?) FSDO.
    http://home.earthlink.net/~flynrow/s...removed-33.gif
    Last edited by pacer44k; 04-26-2012 at 03:39 PM. Reason: Add'l Info

  3. #3
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    pacer44K,
    Thanks for digging that up and sharing it. I find it interesting that I would need FSDO approval since the PA20 is listed in the AC and the Operator's Manual contains the procedures and limitations. The FAA in their infinite wisdom...
    Slipping the surly bonds of Earth...

  4. #4
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    I'm not sure about the Pacer, but the PA-22 has a flight manual supplement to remove the rear door, and I don't think you need anything but a logbook entry for removal of the door and to keep that supplement in the airplane while flying that way. There is also a placard I believe.

  5. #5
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    Shanty Bay, Ontario, Canada
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    I have a supplement in my Aircraft Manual. I can copy it and send it to you.

    Peter L.

  6. #6
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    That would be great! You can private email me, if you want.
    Slipping the surly bonds of Earth...

  7. #7
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    UPDATE!: Help needed!!
    My friendly FSDO has been doing some research on my request to fly with the rear door removed on my PA20. The 'form' provided on Andy's website is NOT a valid form showing previous field approval with attendant limitations. Mr. FAA inspector researched the tail number listed on that form and looked high and low for a 337 approval and came up empty-handed. So...here's where I am:
    Do any of you have an approved 337 already for this door 'mod'? If so, if you could be so kind as to send me a copy of it, it will greatly simplify the paperwork/hassle on my end. Otherwise...I'll be finding my local IA to write up a new 337 request. (ugh). A bar across the door opening is also required to meet FAA approval. Will need to include a picture, or drawing of that device, as well.

    Any further help you guys can be on this would be appreciated!!! Thanks a heap!
    Dale
    Slipping the surly bonds of Earth...

  8. #8
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    Dale,

    There is an STC for removal of the rear door on the PA-20. it is STC #SA31CE and it is owned by Lincoln Sport Parachute Club. The address is 929 Furnas Avenue, Lincoln NE 68501. The date on it is 1960 so it's hard to say if they are still around. You might try and contact the responsible FAA office at: ACE-115W Wichita Aircraft Certification Office Tel: (316) 946-4100 if you can't find them.

    I took a quick look at the TC (1A4) for the Pacer and could find no reference to removing the rear door. This is referenced in the PA-22 TC (1A6). Thus it will take either a 337 or an STC to make the modification to a PA-20.

    Tom Anderson
    Last edited by Tom Anderson; 07-24-2012 at 12:54 AM.

  9. #9
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    Found an STC for the Pa-20
    STC Number:
    SA211WE

    This certificate issued to:
    Glacier View Skyways Inc

    STC Holder's Address:
    P.O. Box 252
    Kalispell MT 59901
    United States

    Description of the Type Design Change:
    Removal of left-hand cabin door for parachute jumping and aerial photography operations.

    Application Date:


    Status:
    Issued, 01/01/1960

    Responsible Office:
    Seattle Aircraft Certification Office (ANM-100S), Tel: (425) 917-6400

    TC Number -- Make -- Model:
    1A4 -- Piper Aircraft, Inc., The New -- PA-20 Series

    Full Text of STC:
    Exact date unknown.

    Peter

  10. #10
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    Peter and Tom,
    Thanks!! Finally some concrete leads. FSDO should be able to look those up in archives and retrieve paperwork on those issuances. It's a better starting point than what I had, apparently.
    Much appreciated, fellas
    Dale
    Slipping the surly bonds of Earth...

  11. #11
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    Here's some encouraging news for me and for others who might want to do this with their PA20 in the future:
    My FSDO contact actually has come through for me quite nicely. After I sent him some older STCs for this same mod, he did some more research and got me the info for what I need. Many thanks to you guys on this site and shortwing.org for helping out!
    Wag Aero owns a current STC for this door mod on PA20s, STC #SA25EA, or their p/n M376009. I bought one for $149. Expensive, maybe, but it will save me loads of time and paperwork from trying to build this on my own from ground-zero. A 'suitable guardrail' is required for non-parachute ops with this mod, as well as following all the other restrictions that the older docs listed (that we've all become familiar with lately). Got some good, simple ideas for that which should pass muster with the Feds and not cost much at all to do.

    thanks, gents! I'll keep you updated and let you know how the paperwork looks when I get my hands on it.
    Dale
    Slipping the surly bonds of Earth...

  12. #12
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    Hi Dale,

    Were you able to figure out the paperwork on this? I'm interested in whatever door(s) off possibilities I have with a PA-22/20.

    Best,

    Peter

  13. #13
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    Hi Peter,
    Sorry I have let this collect dust and not updated this thread. Got the STC from Wag-Aero for flight with rear door removed on a PA-20. The STC is from the late 60s and includes simple instructions on how to remove the rear door and replace it. Also, it includes drawings for installing restraints for parachutists (which i didn't need). Because of the way the way the STC is worded (or lack of wording) it isn't clear that the procedure for removing/reinstalling the door is a minor modification and can be done with just a log book entry by the owner. My local FSDO contact decided it was best if we clarified that fact on my installation. So, he provided exact wording to the A&P/IA i used to do the initial install of the STC and sign-off to the end that he (the FSDO guy) would sign it off as a 'field approval' before we sent off the paperwork to OK City. That's how it ended up. I can remove and reinstall at my pleasure with just some simple logbook entries.

    One interesting point of note in this STC vs. the other instructions that have been floated on this thread is that there is no provision or stipulation that a 'suitable guardrail' be installed. So, there is no need to fabricate something to go across the opening; you can just have the open hole. The installed FAA approved passenger restraints are suitable enough.

    For a true PA20 (not a converted PA22), the TCDS doesn't allow flight with door removed. PA22s, however, do have a different TCDS that does allow this and instructions are included in the POH/Flight Manual. No approval is needed for this modification; just comply with Flight Manual limitations and procedures for this condition. Thus, I had to get the STC whereas others who've helped me by posting here did not.

    One final note, to make my photographer more comfortable, I did fabricate and install a guardrail, of sorts. You can PM me for more details of that, if interested.
    Slipping the surly bonds of Earth...

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