Information Request

[p_everette]

Hi Guy's,
I just joined the forum today. I am looking at purchasing a PA-22-150. I am looking for some info on any trouble areas that I should look at on the aircraft before I setup and pay for a pre-buy inspection/annual. I have perused the A/D list that is posted on the FAA web site. Supposedly all A/D's have been complied with. I guess what I need are some pointers on after my first visual inspection should I continue, walk away, or run. Any advice or tips you could provide would be very helpful. Thanks for your time.

Phil Everette

[jdalexa]

Phil,

Probably the best thing that you can do is to retain an A&P who has familiarity with the SWP's - or at least tube and fabric planes - and have that A&P do a very thorough pre-buy inspection. The report should look like a horror story - containing every little minor (and major) issue. Most should be no biggie, but you should have a complete idea of what you are getting into.

There is an article on the SWPC website that was taken (with permission) from an AVWEB article about pre-buys. It's very good and I recommend reading it.

http://www.shortwing.org/TestSite/index.php?module=article&view=20

A friend of mine had a very thorough pre-buy done on an Ercoupe he was gonna buy. Seller thought he was nuts spending several hundred dollars on a $14,000 airplane like that. Turns out the aircraft was drastically unairworthy with a rotted out center section (big problem with Ercoupes). He saved himself a lot of money and hassle.

[Tom T.]

Yea, I can attest to that. I did'nt have a prebuy and now I have another $11,000. into it just to get it annualled and flyable. Now it's for sale because I put to much into it
Tom T.

[p_everette]

Tom,
What kind of issues did you run into on your aircraft? I do plan on a pre buy, I have read the pre buy article on the SWPC web site, it managed to scare me pretty good. But better to know now than later.

Phil

[Tom T.]

Phil, I will send you a personal email, as the list is very long. My deal turned into actual fraud and cost me a bunch in legal fees.
Tom

[Air Raid]

Hello, Here is my story. Bought a PA-22 in 1997 and flew it for four years. Then it flunked inspection because the wing coverings had used cotton for the reinforcing tapes over ceconite material. The cotton was done. I was told that that was okay to do back years ago, but the cotton did not last as long as the ceceonite. We decided to do a full cover job since it had been about 25 years. Found lower longerongs needed to be replaced, more tubing around the door posts, front door hinge, bottom of the rudder was rotted, a cross member tube under the floor had a split in it from water freezing inside it. My AP did a lot of welding. The wings had some minor problems that we fixed. Took two years to repair and recover. I took the EAA Sportair covering course and did it under the eyes of my AI. Since this airplane had not been recovered in quite a while and had spent a great deal of time outdoors in the winters of the Northeast (Maine) it had many unseen "issues." So my advice would be to find an airplane recently covered that has been hangared. Spend more money for these things because you will spend lots more money if you find a cheap one like I did and then need to put more money and time into it than it is actually worth. It is the stuff that you cannot see until the cover is off that will get you. All of that said, I enjoyed the project of recovering. During the rebuild I was able to improve many things such as adding shoudler harnesses, an intercom, a few newer instruments, new interior, new sealed wing struts, etc. I do not know the total cost of the rebuild/recover (my wife does but I really did not want to know) but it was at least 20K (my wife would probably laugh at my estimate because I always guess way low) and now I figure it is worth about 25-30K and I bought it for 15K - you do the math. I enjoy flying more than rebuilding and the two years off was tough. But as far as airplanes go, I love my Tripacer. And I made it what I want. I thought it would be a starter plane for me but I just cannot part with it now. But to do over again, I would have just gone out and found the best Tripacer I could find and know that it is a bargain if recently rebuilt. And they are out ther for sale. Good luck.

Air Raid
aka John Nadeau

[Gilbert Pierce]

I think Air Raid got it right. Unless you want to customize your airplane and keep it forever, buy the best airplane you can find and plan on spending top dollar for it because it will be cheaper than buying a cheap one and fixing it up. These airplanes are 50 years old, more or less. To most folks a recover is strip off the old and put on new fabric. WRONG. If you do that you just covering up a lot of problems. READ Piper SB 819. it is a REAL concern. Under the sheet metal on my airplane, which for most part looked fine, was rusted out tubing under both doors and windows plus both doors needed rebuilding once the skin was off. It would have been easy just to recover and get on with it. Removing all of the sheet metal, replacing the tubing under it and making new sheet metal and welding it back on is time consuming and expensive if you have to pay a welder.
You CAN NOT buy a project, redo the cover and sell it in few years and come out on it, especially if you just put on new fabric and the prospective buyer has a pre-buy done by knowlegable A&P.

[dsimpson]

Hi everyone,
I bought a project back in 99. It was recovered but work had stopped. I thought I
got a good deal. It to cost me alot more than I planned. I found others that was
flying but I new work was needed. So I plunged into the one I still own now. I love the
airplane. No rusted tubes was found but alot of poor workmanship. I ended up stripping
the cover off both wings ,tail surfaces finding alot of bad work. So even a cover Job
can be poor. I have a lot of money in this airplane but I now know it is a wonderful
flying plane. Fresh engine overhaul was done as well.
Looking back I think it would have been better to find a real nice flying bird
instead of a project. Took me over 5 years to complete the one I have now.
Dan
N2905p

[Kenneth Aasand]

Phil
A lot of good info has been presented. My own experience echos what the others have said. As far as a prepurchase inspection goes make sure the Mechanic is working for you. I would not recommend letting the seller arrange for his A&P to inspect the plane for you.
Corrosion and age are big concerns. See if piper service bulletin 819 was ever done. This inspection checks the tubing under the door channel for corrosion and is done at fabric replacement. Service Bulletin 1044 checks the front lift strut attachment for corrosion and several other areas. 1044 has two parts. One part can be done with fabric on the airplane and one part is done with fabric removed.
AD notes. Do not accept a general statement of all AD's complied with. All AD's are required to be complied with anyway. You want to see an AD listing with each AD listed and signed as either complied with or N/A. You need a list of AD's for the airframe, the engine and the appliances such as the carb, the mags ELT etc.
Modifications- Things that have been modified require approval. This is done on a FAA form 337. The records should have one for fabric replacement if it is not the orginal cotton. Different alternators, brakes, generators, Droop tips and the like require a copy of the 337 in the aircraft records. A log book entry is not good enough.
The TCDS. Each airplane was built based on a Type Certificate Data Sheet. Part of being airworthy means the airplane conforms to this TCDS. This sheet will specify what engine and carburator along with what propellor, brakes etc can be the aircraft. Recently I looked at a tripacer with a mcCauly prop. This prop had been on the plane since 1958 with out any approval what so ever. Looked good, just not legal thus not airworthy.
Inactivity. Airplanes are made to be flown. An airplane that has not flown in a long time will have hidden problems. The camshaft in the engine may rust and the engine will run fine for some number of hours until the engine just can no longer make rated power.
For the fabric, yes there are bad cover jobs out there but if you see lumps under the fabric do not think bad cover job, think rust. Rust under fabric causes the fabric to bubble and lump up.
Another simple place to look for rust is the lower front corner of the doors. A drain hole there always clogs up and the door frame rust out. also look around the battery box.
I have written enough but I hope this helps.

[Homer Landreth]

The airframe itself is not the only area where you can get burned. On the Avionics side, improper radios can get you into the $4,000 to $7,000 range of surprises before you can fly your new plane.

1. The first thing to check is this WEB site http://wireless.fcc.gov/aviation/freqtol.html This is an official list of radios that were supposed to be removed from service in 1997. They are plain illegal for use and unfortunately there are many still in use.

2. Secondly, if a transponder and encoder is installed, look for the current biennial certification of the transponder, and encoder. There are some older transponders that are illegal for use and will have to be replaced. As far as the biennial transponder and encoder certification, the standard excuse is usually that they didn't get around to it. To that excuse, read into it that the owner probably has pretty solid knowledge that one or the other isn't working so he didn't go get the certification. The certification will cost you around $250.00 if there are no problems, much more if it isn't working right.

3. If the aircraft has a LORAN or GPS in it find out the currency of the database. If it is out of date, find out the method and cost of making it current. Many LORANS are no longer supported by their manufacturer and as such cannot be upgraded and that makes them be not much more accurate than flying low and reading the name painted on the city water tower. Some database upgrades can get into the $100.00 to $200.00 range if you have to return the unit to the manufacturer for update.

4. After all of that, make sure that ALL AVIONICS were installed by qualified licensed persons. If it isn't in the log book or on a 337, and so state that it was installed in accordance with the manufacturers installation instructions, you are legally out of business for use of the offending component. Optimally, take the plane to an avionics shop and request that they do a ramp check of the transmitters and VOR receiver in the plane. A second option is you flying the plane and operationally checking all of the transmission and receptions of the Comm and accuracy of VOR. A simple out of tolerance VOR reading can run up to $200 - $300 to get fixed.

So that is my input. I know as soon as I post this that you will see a great amount of flack coming from the "anyone can slam radios in an airplane" crowd, but just remember that it is your checkbook that is at risk, so make your decision accordingly. Also, there are many planes out there that have avionics problems that the owner just doesn't care about so he didn't get them fixed. If that is his attitude, then so be it, his minimal expectations are his problems, but it isn't necessary for you to pay money for his crappy avionics. If you can't use them and/or are in a short time going to have to fix them, then why pay money for them ?

Good Luck with your purchase

[p_everette]

Kenneth,
Thank you for the input, that is exactly the kind of info I am looking for. I should get my first up close look at the machine and logs on Tuesday. I have an IA that is going over the logs as we speak in preparation for a pre buy inspection. I will for sure check the points you made. Thanks again.

Phil

[p_everette]

Homer,
Thank you for your input. I hadn't thought about avionics except to make sure they worked. I will check the avionics against that list on the FCC web site you pointed me to. Thanks again.

Phil

[portouwl]

Phil, all good advice above. I had a mediocre pre-buy a couple of years ago and got bit by the oil pump AD on O-320s. Had a good IA work it over at annual this year and he wasn't satisfied with the vague log book entries. Sure enough, wrong kind of gears in the oil pump, do off came the engine. Lots of other little stuff over the last couple of years. I still think I got a solid plane, but in retrospect I would have known better what I was getting into with a more thorough annual- maybe a lower price, too. Knowledge is bargaining power. This was my first plane purchase. I'm happy with it, just sucking in more cash than I anticipated. Another way to look at it: I'm almost 50 and stuff seems to break pretty regularly on me!

One I haven't seen mentioned above: Get sealed struts and make sure no one has drilled holes in them to mount the door stop clip(s). That instantly turns them into an AD strut.

[p_everette]

Hello Larry,
Thanks for the info. The info sheet I have on the a/c says the sealed struts have been installed, I will check to see that no holes have been drilled! I am having the pre buy done by a 72 year old A&P/IA. I am pretty sure he has seen most everything. At least he is older than the a/c I will meet with him this Tuesday and if things are going well on his end and the items that I have learned about from here check out ok I will see if he will go ahead and do the annual too. The seller of this a/c is pretty motivated, he is selling because of a lost medical. But I am wary, as "they" say if it sounds too good to be true, it probably isn't. But like you I too am pushing 50 and this a/c is older than I am! So I figure it to be like a sail boat I owned, always something to spend money on. And anytime you put "marine" or "aircraft" in front of a part the price doubles or triples immediately. Anyway I am starting to ramble, thanks again for the info. I will put it to good use.

Phil

[Steve Pierce]

I have what was a freshly recovered Clipper in my shop right now that is stripped down to the bare frame and wings. Really bad previous repairs were done to the gear carry-thru, landing gear etc. The rear tube on the fuselage that is supposed to pivot with the jackscrew was frozen solid and the fitting on the fuselage is too large to except a new linear tube. Took the aileron hinges off the wings today and they were pitted real bad and the false spar was corroded where they were riveted to the hinges. Get a pre-buy done by a mechanic you trust and who knows Short Wing Pipers.