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RickF
03-27-2014, 07:31 PM
Picked up a Colt project yesterday and thought this would be a good source of information on rebuilding along with mods as I do the overhaul.

Rick

Kurts
03-27-2014, 08:37 PM
What an excellent choice of airplanes. :) Welcome, Rick!

RickF
03-28-2014, 07:17 AM
Three of the most important items I am considering are:

1. Tailwheel conversion.

2. Wing extensions.

3. O-320 engine.

Any thoughts good and bad?

Rick

Kurts
03-28-2014, 02:34 PM
My .02.

1. Tailwheel converstion. Wish I had one! I have an article from an old SPWC magazine written by a guy named Farmer (Jim, I think it was). He build several go-fast shortwings, including several Colts. He wrote that due to the narrower fuselage, the Colt makes a faster airplane than a Tri-Pacer. Most folks think the fuselages are the same, but they're not. There is an extra stringer on a Tri-Pacer, right behind the D-windows, that makes the fuselage a bit wider (draggier) There is also the "hump back" of a Tri-Pacer (to increase rear seat headroom) that the Colts do not have. So overall, the Colt is a less draggy airframe - but that's not really saying a whole lot. If money were no object I'd find a Colt project, do the tailwheel conversion, close up as many gaps as I could, install a slick set of wheel pants, and then take it to the guy in Ogden who makes gorgeous one-off fiberglass fairings for these, to get some further drag reduction done. Put in a Ly-Con massaged 0-320, and I'd have myself a nice traveling machine.

2. Wing Extensions. It's no secret that I like short wings to look like short wings. Round tips, no vortex generators, and stock paint schemes. That being said, a conversation I had with Dan Stewart of Stewart Systems a couple years ago revealed some interesting facts about their tip extensions. He said his 150hp Clipper would turn a few hundred rpm less when traveling with other short wings due to the power reduction he had to make in order to not outrun them. Of course this translated to fewer gallons added at the pump for him when they'd all stop for fuel. He said the tips made all the difference. Personally, I wouldn't do it for esthetic reasons.

3. O-320 engine. One of the guys I talked to at Ogden a few years back had a 150hp Colt. He said climb rates of 1000 to 1200 fpm were standard. He said he could take off, point right at the hills east of the airport, and just climb right over them. And that's out of airport with a 4500 ft elevation. Mine, with the stock O-235 can climb at maybe 600 fpm at sea level, for a few thousand feet at best. I'd love to have the larger engine.

Kurt

RickF
03-28-2014, 07:15 PM
Thanks Kurt.

It looks like I owe you 6 cents.

Rick

pacer44k
03-30-2014, 02:16 AM
Rick,
If I was doing the project, my priorities would be in this order:

1. Tailwheel Conversion - At one time I was on the bandwagon of the "Tri-Pacer's are ugly" crowd. That was when I was uneducated on the performance of the SWP's. I have flown Kurt's Colt, and really admire the performance that he gets from 115 hp. That said, if I had a Colt torn down, I would do the taildragger conversion. There can be no doubt the reduction in drag will result in better performance. Also, what Kurt said about cleaning up the airframe rings true. Doing everything you can to clean up the airframe, and you will be rewarded with increased performance. The previous owner of my Pacer made that a priority, and it has paid off.

2. O-320 - The only substitute for horsepower is MORE horsepower! The Colt with an O-320 would be a mean performer indeed! My Pacer came with an O-290, and when it was converted to the O-320 it made a huge difference. Not much increase in cruise speed, but you can get the same speed with less power, burning less fuel, which equals fewer Lincoln's at the pump. Where the extra ponies really shine is when you are at a high, hot, airport.

3. Extended wingtips - Kurt and I are in the same camp on appreciating the look of the rounded wingtips. However, there is no disputing that there is a performance advantage, as witnessed by what Dan Stewart had to say. But, I would start off getting my increased performance via methods 1 & 2, and go from there.

RickF
03-30-2014, 09:44 AM
Thanks Mark.

Who would I get the wing extensions from?

I do not see it in the Unavair catalog.

Rick

Kurts
03-30-2014, 08:50 PM
http://www.stewartsystems.aero/products/164/stewart-wing-tip-stc

Try this one. In fact, the picture is of their afore mentioned Clipper.

Kurt

RickF
03-31-2014, 06:58 AM
Thanks Kurt.

I will check it out and most likely put them on my wish list.

Rick

RickF
04-02-2014, 07:20 AM
Are there any other mods that I should consider while I am working this?

Rick

walt.buskey
04-11-2014, 06:56 AM
Rick, here's some pics of the Stewart tips on a nose-dragger. As I'm a newbie too I can't vouch for them, but I do like the idea. Walt

jwbruce
04-11-2014, 10:58 AM
nice photos, it's always good to see some little kids wondering about an airplane.

walt.buskey
04-11-2014, 11:18 AM
Grandsons. Yep, they think planes are pretty cool!

rwdurham
04-12-2014, 09:34 PM
Good grief Walt. That plane looks a lot better than the first time I ever saw it. You've got her shined up!!

walt.buskey
04-13-2014, 06:54 AM
Rick, I --sort of-- cheated. The second pic (with grandsons) is the day after we flew it up here from PA; Blake had cleaned it up before we got down there to get it (March 11,2012). The first pic, however, was the last time it flew, a year ago last October (:(). Blake told me he just used Pledge on it, and I have to admit it really works.

Right now it's a bit dusty from being in the hangar all winter, but, for an old timer, it really does clean up pretty well… just like me!:cool:

Walt

RickF
04-13-2014, 12:09 PM
Walt,

Who did the wing tip mod on your airplane?

How much does it change the performance?

You really need to get out there and fly it.
Airplanes do not like to sit.

Thanks,

Rick

Jim Hann
04-14-2014, 10:17 AM
http://www.stewartsystems.aero/products/164/stewart-wing-tip-stc

Try this one. In fact, the picture is of their afore mentioned Clipper.

Kurt

Just so you know I talked to Dan Stewart at Sun N Fun about the wingtips because I have them on my "new" wings. He said that they are only selling the paperwork now, not the complete kit. Something about the FAA and PMA approvals, call them and talk to them about it. Very nice folks and great to do business with!

Jim

RickF
04-15-2014, 05:30 PM
Thanks Jim.

I am planning on going to Oshkosh and will be getting a lot of information then.

Not just Stewart, but the SWP members.

Rick

Jim Hann
04-17-2014, 09:18 AM
Thanks Jim.

I am planning on going to Oshkosh and will be getting a lot of information then.

Not just Stewart, but the SWP members.

Rick

Exactly what I did last year at OSH and a couple weeks ago at SnF! There is a great knowledge base on here and on Shortwingpipers.org also. I've got a thread going over there about my airplane. Good luck!

Jim

TomEdmondson
04-23-2014, 08:02 PM
W-E-L-C-O-M-E Rick! First, you joined the BEST Piper club, second you came to the right forum. I too joined not long ago and I have to tell you that I just had my first annual on my plane and I purchased the "Piper Technical Manual (series of 3 huge binders) from this club website (store link). WORTH EVERY PENNY. I had a problem bleeding brakes and regardless what we tried still has air in the system. Brought out the manual, found 'bleeding brakes', followed the steps and it worked like a charm. My A&P paged through them and found a with how to fix rear springs on Pacer tail wheel. He had a customer who had a problem and he found how to resolve his problem. So get those manuals. Has a ton of various tips and all $$$ goes back into the club.
The other thing to do is join your 'local chapter' (closest to you) SWPC. I just joined the Mid-America Chapter and brought my best friend and he too joined. I thought I won the lottery when everyone came out of the airport as I taxied up and they surrounded my plane and gave me a very warm welcome. That said a ton on these members. They love their planes and doing fun things/events with them. So join your chapter and they too will help 'connect' you to the right people to help you on your project.

Also connect with this club on Facebook (much easier and quicker to catch up on news and post information there).
https://www.facebook.com/groups/105167369533447/

walt.buskey
04-24-2014, 06:38 AM
Sorry, Rick, I didn't see your questions. The wingtip mod was done in 2006, just prior to purchase by the fellow I bought it from, which was when the plane had a complete tear-down & "restoration" after having sat for 20 years, apparently. (Next earliest logbook entry dtd Oct 1986.)

I don't really have any specs (or experience!) to tell you what the difference is, but I get the impression the main idea was to extend the top airfoil surface all the way to the wingtip(s), thereby increasing the lifting area…?? At least I think that was the idea.

Alas, I have no hard data to state what, if any, improvements that made. Perhaps others who have had this mod done can shed some light on it-- I'd be interested to hear any comments/opinions.

Walt

Jim Hann
05-01-2014, 01:02 AM
Here are some pictures of "naked" Stewart tips on my "new wings" that I'm covering now.

Jim
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walt.buskey
05-01-2014, 04:41 AM
:eek: Oooh! An Austin-Healey 3000! (About the only car that would give my folks' XK120 a good run for the money back in the early-to-mid 60s….)

Nice pics of the wingtips, thanks-- nice to see what they look like on the inside. However, that one shot of the whole wing… don't know how to tell you this, but it looks like it may be bent a bit….:roll eyes:

Walt

RickF
05-01-2014, 05:00 AM
Thanks Jim.

I do like the looks.

Rick

Kurts
05-01-2014, 09:11 AM
I could be wrong, but I think (famous last words), with those big gills just behind the front wheel, that's a Healey 100-6. Jim?

Kurt




:eek: Oooh! An Austin-Healey 3000! (About the only car that would give my folks' XK120 a good run for the money back in the early-to-mid 60s….)

Nice pics of the wingtips, thanks-- nice to see what they look like on the inside. However, that one shot of the whole wing… don't know how to tell you this, but it looks like it may be bent a bit….:roll eyes:

Walt

David Hedditch
06-04-2014, 07:26 AM
It took an A & P and me 2 1/2 yrs working 40 hr a week to rebuild my PA22/20-180. Oh, and lots of money. If you need anything, I have a lot of "stuff" left over and may have what you need and lots of experience of what not to do. 406 360 3283

Jim Hann
06-04-2014, 09:13 AM
:eek: Oooh! An Austin-Healey 3000! (About the only car that would give my folks' XK120 a good run for the money back in the early-to-mid 60s….)

Nice pics of the wingtips, thanks-- nice to see what they look like on the inside. However, that one shot of the whole wing… don't know how to tell you this, but it looks like it may be bent a bit….:roll eyes:

Walt

Sorry I'm slow, I missed the email updates about this thread :-\

I don't know what model Healey it is, my buddy owns it (for now) but it has a straight six and dual carbs. The wheels are deep dish Cobra wheels, one standard one in the trunk.

Walt, I was trying that mind melding thing with the wing. :-) Actually, it is a panoramic shot with my new-fangled iPhone 5s. For some reason I didn't take any normal pictures with only the bottom fabric on, oh well.

Oh, and it sounds like the Healey will be up for sale soon, so if you are interested...

PeterL
06-11-2014, 10:16 PM
It took an A & P and me 2 1/2 yrs working 40 hr a week to rebuild my PA22/20-180. Oh, and lots of money. If you need anything, I have a lot of "stuff" left over and may have what you need and lots of experience of what not to do. 406 360 3283

Dave, you should post a few pics of your plane, it's a perfect example of how to do it right.

Peter

David Hedditch
06-15-2014, 08:42 AM
My problem is taking the time to learn how to post pictures. I have got the pictures, just don't know how to get them here.