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Thread: X wind question

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Indian Hills Airpark, Salome AZ
    Posts
    171

    Default X wind question

    How much side load will the PA-22 main gear take? If you run out of rudder or get caught by a gust at the last moment are you apt to wipe out the gear?

    I've had my PA-22 for a couple of years but have yet to land with a large X wind component. I'd guess 10 knots is the most I've experienced.

    Cheers:

    Paul
    N1431A
    KPLU

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Hurricane, UT
    Posts
    422

    Default

    don't have the answer to your direct question regards wipping out gear but if you use proper technique in using wing down and rudder to maintain alignment, I think you will find more than enough control authority to keep it straight and land in a strong x-wind. this little airplane handles xwind better than most and especaially brand x
    Andy Anderson
    PA-22/20-150

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    The Dalles
    Posts
    244

    Default

    The PA 22s have an advantage with the CG forward of the main gear so if you are slightly skewed touching down, the plane will try to straighten itself out. For the people with the little wheel in the back, it is another story. If a Pacer starts sliding sideways in a ground loop, the streamline tube in the landing gear is a weak point (don't ask how I know this) and the streamline tube will buckle and the gear fold. Eddie Trimmer in Alaska has a mod for the gear of a Pace to make it considerably stronger for side load. With the 22 if you follow Andy's advice and use the proper technique, the plane will probably handle more load than you will. For the tailwheel drivers, I guess you just have to make sure you get it right.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Peoria Arizona
    Posts
    609

    Default

    Hi Paul; Good questions, interesting subject. What side load it can take is a force and structures question that is not as important as the translation of it into what you can and cannot control as a pilot. The greatly misunderstood words for this subject is "maximum demonstrated crosswind component". The two key elements here are the words "demonstrated", and "component". "Component" does not mean maximum wind, it means 90 degree crosswind vector (as computed by an E6B computer,. . . whoa! whassat ? ) ie. a 25 knot wind straight down the runway has a 0 degree crosswind component, but a 10 knot wind perpendicular to the runway has a 10 knot crosswind component. "Demonstrated" means somebody did it during the certification process. Manufacturers have to "demonstrate" crosswind component to 20% Vso to get certified. To a Tripacer, that means that someone had to go do a crosswind landing with a 10 knot crosswind component. However, to keep the lawyers happy, most will go and "demonstrate" .3 Vso which for the Tripacer means 15 knots. That is the figure that you most hear for a Tripacer, and is probably most advertised because they actually did it. Now for the most important question; "Just because a highly experienced test pilot with thousands of hours in type did it during certification, does that mean that you should use that number?" The answer is no, you need to establish your personal never exceed number. I personally have landed a Tripacer in a 25 knot crosswind component condition. I don't make a steady diet of it, but I know it is what I can do. Can I break that town into aerodynamics or landing gear forces? No, but what I can do is understand the total picture so that some day if I am totally backed into a crosswind landing in a howling monsoon, I know what the plane and I are capable of doing and that is the equalizer to the whole equation. The best thing that one can do is to go out and find some crosswinds and practice landings. Work up to higher speed crosswind components gradually, and to get some hard experience and develop your personal limitations from that. Remember that if you feel you are uncomfortable in a flying situation it is probably because something in your brain is telling you that you are exceeeding your abilities to handle the situation, so use caution.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Spokane Wa.
    Posts
    1,461

    Default

    I landed in a crosswind last year [August] that was about 20k. One thing I noticed was the rudder kicking back at me hard enough that not only got my attention, but made me wonder if I damaged something. The first thing I looked at was my steering rods. It's like a hammer on the bottom of my foot.
    Tom T.

  6. #6
    Wayne Guest

    Default

    In June, coming back from Bishop to WJF I landed in a 60 degree cross wind of 13K gusting to 32K. When I touched down I got my first indication that I had a flat tail wheel tire. If I had the stock drum brakes instead of the double puck Clevelands I have, I surely would have ground looped every time a gust of wind slapped the tail around and I had to slab a brake to bring her back. @ 2 points to this story, the first is that most strong winds come with a considerable gust factor. The gusts are, in my opinion, much more difficult to handle than a steady wind. And 2) All PA22s are not equal. The brakes, and vortex generators, to mention a couple of the many mods that can affect how your plane handles a cross wind, WAyne

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    brownton
    Posts
    366

    Default

    doesnt this mean you had the correction in for the cross wind landing but when the nose wheel came down to touch the runway it wasnt going straight? thats the one thing about a piper vs a cessna cessna isnt a direct connection and you can have the nose wheel not perfectly staight but in a piper that nose wheel has to be pretty close to straight when it touches down or bad things can happen a while ago we had a guy renting the cherokee at our airport and the very same thing happened but he bent the airplane the nose wheel hit crooked and the plane turned rather abruptly in the direction his nosewheel was pointing and it kinda tipped down forward getting the wingtip and propeller

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Winnemucca
    Posts
    74

    Default

    Pick on a cold, steady direct 5 kt crosswind some morning. Come back another similar day with 10 kts. Do it again with 15 kts if you feel comfortable; otherwise, practice more with an instructor.

    As a refresher, over three weeks, I did about 30 crosswind landings with progressively higher winds. I stopped practicing at 15 kts because of the posted limitation; but I was consitently nailing the landings and began to feel much better about crosswinds in the Tri-Pacer. Those short wings are great for crosswinds!

    The very next week, an unforecast 80 kt wind caught me on a crosscountry over mountains into a one-runway strip with what amounted to a 25 kt crosswind component. Had the gas to go home, but the ride was getting dangerous in the mountains. If I had not practiced so currently, I'm sure I would have bent the airplane. As it turned out, with three passes, proper technique (and probably some last-second serendipitious happenstance), I was able to land, taxi into the lee side of a giant hangar, and tie down without getting anything but knots on my head, in my stomach, and a five-pound loss of perspiration. Don't forget other options like landing on taxiways---or even the dirt or flat unobstructed ground. With high wind, your ground speed will be way down there---and a few nicks on the prop or paint is worth the safe and sane maneuver to by pass a big problem in an "emergency." As PIC, you have the right (and obligation) to be safe no matter what's painted on the blacktop on the ground.

    The turbulence was so great that my wife and I were being hammered on the cross tubes overhead. I've since padded them before installing a new headliner.

    The Tri-Pacer seems to handle crosswinds far better than any of the 10 different planes I've ever flown in 50 years.
    Last edited by 7436; 09-13-2007 at 12:48 AM.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Sierra Vista/Ft Huachuca, AZ (KFHU)
    Posts
    273

    Default

    Good emergency technique when caught in a (too) high x-wind: Obstacles and runway permitting, land on an angle to the runway centerline into the wind, 20 or 30 degrees or so off the center line and into the wind. Reduces the x-wind component. You can also three point a Tri-pacer in a x-wind. Isn't pretty, but that tank-like nose gear will take it. As a recall, the "manual" says this is an acceptable technique.
    Larry Portouw
    N8141C PA-22
    E95/Benson, AZ

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    The Dalles
    Posts
    244

    Default

    If the wind is that bad, don't forget a taxiway and a potential landing strip if it is better aligned into the wind. You are PIC and can do what you want. If it is possibly bending an airplane or take the taxiway, I will take the taxiway and explain it to whomever afterwards.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Indian Hills Airpark, Salome AZ
    Posts
    171

    Default

    When you describe landing in a cross wind in a 3 point attitude Am I correct assuming that you are landing in a crab to cancel drift? This is how an Ercoupe is landed but I didn't think the Tri-Pacer main gear could take too much side load.

    I'm learning a bit from this thread thank all for your input.

    Cheers:

    Paul
    N1431A
    KPLU

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    The Dalles
    Posts
    244

    Default

    If the crab is done right and you kick the rudder at the right time, there should not be an excessive side load on the gear. If the wing low method is used (which is he one I greatly prefer with a high wing airplane) then you also don't have the side load. I don't think Iwould want to land a PA 22 or especially 20 while in the crab and let it self center the you could an Ercoupe, you would really be asking for trouble.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Richmond, VA
    Posts
    36

    Default

    I agree with Larry. Land as much into the wind as possible, regardless or runway direction. I find the crab, (no flaps) method to work best as you can easily run out of rudder with the wing low method in really high winds. Kick out the crab at the last moment, keep the wheel turned into the wind and plane straight with rudder after touchdown. Keep airspeed in a reasonable range for the gusts. The PA-22 won't let you down, sweat a little sometimes, but never betray you.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Leeds, AL.
    Posts
    711

    Default

    You run out of rudder at about 20 knots of crosswind. The limiting factor is dragging the low wing. Plenty of rudder as far as I am concerned.
    By the way if you expect the taildragger to straighten out like an ercoupe then you will have one heck of a surprise!
    Last edited by 13010; 11-02-2007 at 09:42 PM.

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