WANT TO JOIN THE SHORT WING PIPER CLUB?


Results 1 to 31 of 31

Thread: Slatted wings and performance

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    The Dalles
    Posts
    244

    Default Slatted wings and performance

    There has not been any activity on the forum for a while so I thought I would share a video of what the slats can do.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLa4BikYWtc

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Sioux Falls, SD
    Posts
    334

    Default

    Dakota Cub is working an STC for slotted wings for the short wing series. Mark, the owner, suggests supercub type performance with these wings and an incredible climb attitude as shown on the video above.
    N3648M
    1947 PA-12
    Mike Koch
    Sioux Falls, SD

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Strathclair Mb Ca.
    Posts
    280

    Default

    HI, I was just reading a good article about this airplane in EAA Sport Aviation May 2008. Sounds like lots of good ideas, I especially like the idea of being able to disconnect the drooping ailerons for better control in a crosswind however by the looks of it wouldn't take much of a wind to just land vertically if you were pointed into it???
    Doug.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    338

    Default

    There will be a lot of opinions and a lot of controversy over them about this type of flying so I won't give my direct opinion, but, here are my thoughts. From a lot of pilots I know, and a lot students I have had, and a lot of instruction of others by me, I can think of ony one or two pilots that I would even think about demonstrating this type of flying to. (FYI one of them is a pilot acquaintenance that I knew during my "Black Ops" days.)
    The You Tube demonstration was obviously done by an experienced pilot who had done it before many times, but if you note, the red and white Cub was probably ten feet or less from dunking the plane in the water on one of his landings, so think how susceptible a "rookie" who just took instruction in doing it would be on his first few solo attempts at it. Even with my select "chosen two" I would think their instructor (not me incidentaly) would have an airtight "hold harmless" agreement in place that indemnifies him, from the pilot, his heirs, his insurance company, the entire population and all the structures and the structure owners in the free world, etc, etc. Remember, these are my thoughts (OK, opinions) so be nice in your abuse of me.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Spokane Wa.
    Posts
    1,461

    Default

    Well Homer, I totally agree with you, why would you put yourself in such a posiition in the first place? A lot of risk just to get your picture on taken!
    Tom T.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    The Dalles
    Posts
    244

    Default

    I would worry about getting too slow of a stall speed. Where I live in Oregon, the Columbia River Gorge is the wind surfing capitol of the world. Needless to say we are famous for our winds. I have landed in 30 - 35 kt winds and if the plane stalled at 30 or less, it would never stop flying!! Plain old VGs might be the extent of what I would want.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Leeds, AL.
    Posts
    711

    Default

    What did you fly Homer? In the dark ages I flew a little in modified U-10Ds. Even with something like that I can say that (for various reasons) the three we had ended up being written off. Not because we dropped them in the river on landing though.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Sioux Falls, SD
    Posts
    334

    Default

    Dakota Cub reports a stable 45 to 50 degree nose high attitude with their slotted wings. They are testing it in a short grass strip near Mark's home and shop. The strip looks like a very narrow football field as they mow markers lines to test the STOL capabilities of the wing. Like Steve says, these planes cruise around in some scary, but stable and controllable, nose high attitudes and land and take off in incredibly short distances. Mark is working to get an STC for his slotted supercub wing for PA 12's. Would love to have one on my plane when that happens!!!!!!!!
    N3648M
    1947 PA-12
    Mike Koch
    Sioux Falls, SD

  9. #9
    joewcasey Guest

    Default

    I thought the display was SPECTACULAR, and went to show what a practiced, experienced pilot could do with an equally performing piece of equipment. I'm not sure what slots will do for overall cruise speed, but I sure would like to have them on my bird. The only airplanes that I've flown with slats/slots were the Falcon 20 and the Helio Courier. I don't have nearly enough time in that Helio, but WHAT AN AIRPLANE! Decent cruise, excellent slow speed characteristics and good load capability. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TmKDRSK7ECU
    I'd love to see more capable airplanes like that available to people like us. Sure, every now and then one will get cracked up being used as it was intended, but that's why we carry insurance.
    Last edited by joewcasey; 12-04-2008 at 07:22 PM.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Sioux Falls, SD
    Posts
    334

    Default

    My mother always told me: 1.Two wrongs don't make a right
    2. If you can't say something nice, DON'T SAY ANYTHING
    3. Opinions are often worth what you pay for them,so take
    care in how you use them
    My dear departed grandmother often said: Opinions are like ---holes, everyone has one and most stink. (She had many other sayings that I dare not use in public).
    I guess I am a fortunate to have had two such wise women in my life to give me guidance. I guess what I am trying to say, in a very long and convoluted way, is that life is really too short to get upset by others opinions. Turn the other cheek, lover your neighbor, ....... play well with others, enjoy life, etc. If you should want to hear more of my astute wisdom and are seeking further guidance please visit my for profit website:
    mikeis.fullofbull.com.
    May the peace and tranquility of the highest universal planes be with you all.
    N3648M
    1947 PA-12
    Mike Koch
    Sioux Falls, SD

  11. #11
    joewcasey Guest

    Default

    You just made my point for me. Thanks. Rants, Raves, Off Topic anybody?

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Spokane Wa.
    Posts
    1,461

    Default

    OK you guys, enough is enough!! Let this be the last word.
    Tom T.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Sioux Falls, SD
    Posts
    334

    Default

    John:
    I was not trying to insinuate anything. I was, however, trying to say we need to respect others opinions but don't have to like them or agree with them. My attempt at "light humor" apparently missed it's mark and if you or others were offended I apologize as no offense was intended. Nor did I ever intend for my post to imply that any forum members didn't have appropriate guidance and parenting. I guess I don't feel holier than thou and if my post came across that way I again apologize. I do think your reply was a liitle caustic and would request that you re-read my post again, knowing that it was meant to promote tolerance in a humorous manner. Hopefully no hard feelings.
    Last edited by sdtripacer; 12-06-2008 at 01:39 PM.
    N3648M
    1947 PA-12
    Mike Koch
    Sioux Falls, SD

  14. #14
    JohnW Guest

    Default

    Mike; It was extremely unfortunate that I took your Post as being "sympathetic with" the Post that preceded it. I happily accept your explanation and -in a way that I hope you "take the meaning of" correctly- I respectfully "reject" your apology. Not because I don't WANT an apology, but because I feel it is totally unnecessary for you to be making it. In my "defense", my "mood was altered" by the directness of the [inflammatory] content that preceded your statement, and that I made the mistake of your intention is more than enough for any reasonable person to expect that any apology that may be "owed"... is mine to you. I should have been more careful than to not separate the two Posts and treat each separately. You can clearly see how I erred by tying the two together into an imaginary "unit". I am not so stolid as to not have "recognized" the dangers that are inherent in the written word (particularly as found in the "Forum" environment) whenever "inflection" plays an important role in the interpretation of the person reading it. This clearly affects "humor". Light humor and/or humor with an "esoteric slant" by nature tend to suffer the most mis-interpretation. Neverless, I apologize to YOU, and thank you for having the intelligence (and clearly the foresight) to speak candidly to me about how this error was mine. I am sincere in this apology, and hope it never again comes between us in the future!
    Last edited by JohnW; 12-13-2008 at 08:55 PM.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Sioux Falls, SD
    Posts
    334

    Default

    John, no need for an apology from you either. I am just glad to have any unfortunate misunderstandings resolved.
    N3648M
    1947 PA-12
    Mike Koch
    Sioux Falls, SD

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Leeds, AL.
    Posts
    711

    Default

    I was looking forward to an interesting discussion on slotted wings like the developments mentioned, Stinson station wagons, etc and perhaps dehaviland slats like the Helio Courier. Instead of the heated and discourteous replies.
    Actually I don't think that there was much of a discussion that actually is related to shortwing Pipers.
    Fortunately one can choose to read or not and in reading waste a good bit of time.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Cincinnati
    Posts
    215

    Default

    Geoff

    I. personally have a hard time banning anyone from speaking, (as it was once done to me in years past ) -- even if (as I often do) take something that was said all too personally and not recognizing the fact that the comment made was just meant to p*ss me off. I think banning anyone speaks too heavily in favor of unwarranted censorship. Sure, sometimes some things said can be uncomfortable for some, but maybe not for all. In my honest opinion, UNLESS someone blatanly commits an act of slander / libel (THAT is a completely different isue) , banning them would only further silence someone else that might have something controversial to say, and yet be afraid to say it for fear of retribution.
    Sometimes a loose cannon, Johnnie

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    338

    Default

    Please take the Poll on the SWPC Home page relative to the content of some of the replys in this thread and any future replys in this and other threads. I will temporarliy close this thread and will re-open it pending the outcome of the Poll Question. I suggest that the conclusion of the Poll should have 75 % concurrence of the suggested action before it is implemented, if not it will be considered rejected.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    338

    Default

    This thread is Open again. The poll results were 80% to 20% in favor of keeping thread responses with technical merit in the Forum. (AKA deleting non-technical responses which are caustic and inflammatory or presented in a derogatory manner). In that spirit, I cleaned up the responses in this thread. I am sure that there will be disagreement with what I removed and did not remove, but I concentrated on keeping the technical intent of the thread alive. If you think I "owe you one" and should not have deleted one of your responses send me some private hate mail, just don 't get it started in a Forum response. If you want a public airing of your gripe about my deletion, explain it in 20 words or less and I will collect all of them and publicly publish them when I get enough of them (that will no doubt be sometime before lunch time today ). Responses to this thread and all others should consider the fact that 80% of the respondents to the Poll question indicated they wanted to read and talk about the technical aspects of airplanes and flying and leave the brickbat throwing to one-on-one private email. Thanks to all who participated.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Vero Beach, FL
    Posts
    297

    Default

    No gripes here, Homer, I was one of the 80%. You will never please everyone. You have every authority, as I see it, to delete or edit as you see fit to keep these forums at least pleasant and informative to read and post in.

    The fact that you put this up for a vote was very considerate on your part but not necessary ---- as webmaster you have the final say here and I know I am in the majority when I say "well done and thank you".
    Geoff N.

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Spokane Wa.
    Posts
    1,461

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Geoff Newcombe View Post
    No gripes here, Homer, I was one of the 80%. You will never please everyone. You have every authority, as I see it, to delete or edit as you see fit to keep these forums at least pleasant and informative to read and post in.

    The fact that you put this up for a vote was very considerate on your part but not necessary ---- as webmaster you have the final say here and I know I am in the majority when I say "well done and thank you".
    Geoff N.
    Ditto, What Geoff said
    Tom T.

  22. #22
    JohnW Guest

    Default

    I concur wholeheartedly.

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Frankfort NY
    Posts
    360

    Default

    This whole thing started with a video of a fellow landing on a sandbar. I would like to tell an abreviated story of a fellow I know. Mike flew to Oshkosh this year and then was going to go on to Alaska as he has done several times before in his 172. This year he was in a Supercub with big bagels. He got as far as South Dakota and decided to land on a sandbar in a valley by a nice little river. On approach he got hit by windshear. First when he was about 100AGL. He applied power but it was too strong. At about 50 AGL it slammed him into the ground. The plane basicily folded in half, so much so that the propellor hit him in the head. Both legs, ribs, shoulder broken, gash in his head. The lucky thing was the passenger in the back seat had minor injuries and was able to get them out of the plane. They were both covered in 100LL but no fire. The fuel caused severe chemical burns though. A farmer was nearby and came to help. Cellphone coverage was nil. At Oshkosh he had just bought one of those new GPS emergency locators and pushed the button. Within 2 minutes his wife got a call from the service and she told them if he pushed the button he was in real trouble. Help was sent to the location. Long story short, within 2 hours he was medivaced and in a hospital. He hopes to be off the crutches by Christmas. He had thousands of hours. Had landed the 172 in places in Alaska I would never had imagined. My feeling was he pushing the envelope a lot. It caught up with him. The point is if you are going to do this type of flying as in the youtube, you are taking chances, but then flying in in itself is riskier than staying in bed. It depends how far you want to push the envelope. Choices we all must make when we fly. No insults or criticisms of flying abilities, just discussion of flying. Most of this story I heard from Mike directly at a FAA safety seminar. Food for thought.
    Aviationaholic

  24. #24
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Lawrenceburg, TN
    Posts
    36

    Default

    I'm reminded of a poster still hanging in the hanger where I keep my Tri-Pacer that reads, ìAviation in itself is not inherently dangerous. But to an even greater degree than the sea, it is terribly unforgiving of any carelessness, incapacity or neglect.î

    Pilots such as those who live in Alaska or other mountainous areas learn to fly under different condition than say I did here in Tennessee. I admire their skills but don't intend to duplicate their efforts. I don't have the "Right Stuff" for it.

    For what it's worth .....

    Kenny B

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Vero Beach, FL
    Posts
    297

    Default

    "Pilots such as those who live in Alaska or other mountainous areas learn to fly under different condition than say I did here in Tennessee. I admire their skills but don't intend to duplicate their efforts. I don't have the "Right Stuff" for it."

    Yeah! And this guy was still in South Dakota!!
    Last edited by Geoff Newcombe; 12-15-2008 at 02:36 PM.

  26. #26
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Lawrenceburg, TN
    Posts
    36

    Default

    Fishing Joe from Alaska showed some amazing video of his landing on sand bars, water, etc, and at the Middletown Ohio convention back in 1998. His Pacer has the trundra tires which he removed in route to fly to the convention. I recall his statement at the end of his talk that he wasn't a good pilot and that was the way he had learned to fly. He added that landing on pavement scared the heck out of him .

    KB

  27. #27
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Hurricane, UT
    Posts
    422

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by webmaster View Post
    This thread is Open again. The poll results were 80% to 20% in favor of keeping thread responses with technical merit in the Forum. (AKA deleting non-technical responses which are caustic and inflammatory or presented in a derogatory manner). In that spirit, I cleaned up the responses in this thread. I am sure that there will be disagreement with what I removed and did not remove, but I concentrated on keeping the technical intent of the thread alive. If you think I "owe you one" and should not have deleted one of your responses send me some private hate mail, just don 't get it started in a Forum response. If you want a public airing of your gripe about my deletion, explain it in 20 words or less and I will collect all of them and publicly publish them when I get enough of them (that will no doubt be sometime before lunch time today ). Responses to this thread and all others should consider the fact that 80% of the respondents to the Poll question indicated they wanted to read and talk about the technical aspects of airplanes and flying and leave the brickbat throwing to one-on-one private email. Thanks to all who participated.

    Somehow missed the Poll, but I'm with you homer......
    Andy Anderson
    PA-22/20-150

  28. #28
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Graham, Texas
    Posts
    903

    Default

    Neat stuff this guy is doing in New Zealand with a Pacer on Bushwheels. http://www.avskills.com/gallery.htm

  29. #29
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Spokane Wa.
    Posts
    1,461

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    Neat stuff this guy is doing in New Zealand with a Pacer on Bushwheels. http://www.avskills.com/gallery.htm
    Thanks Steve, that was fun!
    Tom T.

  30. #30
    metrallarider Guest

    Default

    Those guys are having way too much fun. Only thing they need is 12 more inches of wing!

  31. #31
    pistoncan Guest

    Default

    Glad to see there are still some other experimetal advocates out there. Awsome video but way out of my league. I am usually on the shortwingpipers.org site but I check here often. My project is in glacier mode, (moving very slow) Winter heat bills and cutting firewood takes away from the project. Hopefully we will get busy again in a month or so. I am ready to start assembling my wings, as soon as the weather warms up enough to paint the spars. I still havn't gotten my engine started yet. I ran into a problem with the starter not meshing correctly with the flex plate. I have to make a new bracket. Two steps forward and one back.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

 

Home | Officers | Chapters | Members | Classifieds | Conventions