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Thread: 3 point landings in a PA22/20-150

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Lake Geneva, WI
    Posts
    49

    Default 3 point landings in a PA22/20-150

    I find it almost impossible to get a 3 point landing in my Pacer unless I have weight in the back seat or baggage compartment ........ just not enough up elevator. Anybody else have this problem? Anybody have a fix? I have a wide gear and a Maule tailwheel. I can have the elevator all the way back against the stop ............. but still cannot get the tail to touch first or at the same time as the main gear. popperjohn@yahoo.com or (262) 763-6653

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Eufaula, OK
    Posts
    100

    Default

    I would start by checking elevator travel to make sure you are getting all you should be getting. I would also have a look at the weight and balance but my PA-20 is nose heavy and lands 3-point the easiest even though there is almost no flare. If this is the only conversion you have flown you may see if someone will let try theirs for comparison.

    Jeff

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    01TN Tennessee
    Posts
    979

    Default

    Make sure you trim off the force on the yoke on final. Trim for you final approach speed with no pull on the yoke. This might help.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Lake Geneva, WI
    Posts
    49

    Default

    Jeff ........ thanks for the input ..... the only other pacer I have flown is a PA22/20-150 with Stewart extensions & vortex generators ........... it would land tail first anytime you wanted it to. It would land tail first easily with no weight in the back seat or baggage compartment. My PA22/20 will not land tail first unless I have weight in the back. I have equal up and down elevator. One guy told me I should have a lot more up elevator. I hit the up elevator stop ........ so I cannot get more up elevator unless I file the stop which I do not want to do. Another guy who used to have Pacers & TriPacers, told me my problem is just the way the conversions are. I am wondering if the TriPacer elevator stop is the limiting factor. The TriPaces did not have to land 3 point, and maybe Piper did not want to allow enough up elevator to get into a deep stall. Now I am guessing. I am wondering if your PA20 is a conversion or an original Pacer. You said your PA20 lands 3 point no problem. Is it a PA20 or is it a PA22/20/? and with what engine? I would like to know if anybody with a PA22/20-150 or -160 gets normal 3 point landings or tail first landings without adding weight to move the cg rearward, and if so did they change the elevator stop? ......... and do they have a normal PA22 wing without extensions or VG's?

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Lake Geneva, WI
    Posts
    49

    Default

    Jeff ........ I also wonder if you have a Scott tailwheel. I have a Maule tailwheel. I think the tail rides a little higher with a Scott, and I assume a taller tail wheel would make mean it would require less up elevator to get a 3 point landing.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Lake Geneva, WI
    Posts
    49

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    I tried trimming and using less flaps to alleviate the problem a few years ago. By old memory, trimming did not seem to make any difference, nor did using less than full flaps. I know both should help. I will try both again and see if either makes any difference. Thanks

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Eufaula, OK
    Posts
    100

    Default

    Elevator travel are the same for the PA-20 and the PA-22. You should have 24 degrees up travel and 12 degrees down. If you get the same up and down travel and are hitting the stop at the panel before you are hitting the stop at the surface you have a serious out of rig condition. I don't recall the formula but there is a way to convert degrees to inches so you don't have to have a protractor to check travel.

    I have a Scott tailwheel on the PA-20. I need to get the annual done so I can experiment with my lack of flare. When I swapped the CSP for fixed pitch I removed an 11 pound ballast from the tail spring. I'm thinking I might have to reinstall it.

    Jeff
    Last edited by 11767; 08-25-2011 at 06:55 PM.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Shanty Bay, Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    619

    Default

    I'm wondering what your Ref airspeed is at short final? As you may know just a few mph over the Ref spd will cause the aircraft not to be in the three point attitude plus touchdown further down the runway.

    I always practice slow flight in the circuit, ie: 70 mph downwind, base at 65 and final at 60mph, therefore touchdown at a Ref speed just a few mph below Ref.

    Flying the CRJ at work, Ref speed is everything, we have a tolerance of -0 kts to +5 kts, anything above or below you always get someone in the seat beside you calling "SPEED".

    Remember as your instructor always said, "A good approach is a GOOD landing".

    Peter Lubig

  9. #9
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Shanty Bay, Ontario, Canada
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    619

    Default

    Yes, I do have a 3200.

    Peter

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Tehachapi, CA
    Posts
    5

    Default

    We had a guy on our field who purchased a PA-22/20 who couldn't get a full stall 3 point landing, and had me fly it, and I confirmed. We found he had +/- 12 degrees elevator, and should have been able to get 24 degrees up. We got out the drawings and reworked the elevator control system to the drawings - I think a turnbuckle was wrongly installed, among several other things - and got 25.1 degrees up and 11.8 degrees down (cheap digital protractor from Harbor Freight was SO much fun to use compared to measuring and using trig tables!). After that, 3 point landings were a no-brainer.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Lake Geneva, WI
    Posts
    49

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    I am getting 2 impressions from these conversations: 1) a Scott tailwheel helps, but most important is 2) should have the + 24 degrees and minus 12 degrees elevator travel. I measured mine quickly a few months ago with a protractor and remember getting + and - of about 20 degrees. I was hitting a stop at both ends and thus assumed I was getting full travel and the amount of travel I should be getting. Somehow this assumption must have been wrong. I will recheck my angle(s) of travel, and try to determine what stop(s) are limiting my elevator travel. Will report back. Thanks everybody for the kibitzing ........ especially the elevator travel talkers.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Lake Geneva, WI
    Posts
    49

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    Did a quick check today and found I have 15 degrees travel of both up & down elevator. I did not have time to take things apart, but by sound the up elevator travel seemed to be limited be the rear stop, & the down travel appeared to be limited by both the front and rear stops at the same time. Can this be? I hope tnzo get into it deeper soon.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Eufaula, OK
    Posts
    100

    Default

    The rear (primary) stop should always hit first followed very closely by the front (secondary) stop when the surface is moved by the controls in the cockpit. I doubt there is any published data on the shortwings to tell us how much gap there should be at the secondary stop when the primary is in contact but it won't be much. I need to make me a flight control protractor. The little digital levels are handy for somethings but they are not accurate for flight control travel unless a special bracket is built to hold them in line with the control's center line.

    Jeff

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